To All The Dumbasses who don't think we can win...

[Swanny]

You know what's funny. I get accused of not being able to get over the Alomar deal but I'm the one who very rarely brings it up. I bring up Ricky G alot and many associate him with Alomar because he is playing his position. Alomar seems to be a constant in many threads so I throw in my input. As I've said many, many times, let's move past the Alomar trade. He's not an Indian anymore. And teacher, once and for all I NEVER HAVE SAID THAT GONZALEZ HAD TO BE SIGNED AT ANY COST. I simply suggested that something could be worked out with Juan. In retrospect I would say it was a good thing the Indians didn't sign him. I just think that somewhere along the line Shapiro should have been able to figure out that he would have to add someone to this lineup to create some offense. If he could have figured that out we could still win the Central and nobody can convince me that this team could not do some damage in the playoffs with the pitching staff as it is right now.

[*TR]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by the teacher:
Any player's value "at the time" is his expected future performance, not his past. Based on his performance since the trade, Alomar's value was not really very high.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Players 'value at the time' is what the market for his services would bear. I still feel Alomar was dealt 'under market value'.

Post trade performance is irrelevant to what the players market value was at the time. Sure, how the player performs after the deal will eventually tell us whether it was good deal or not. But it doesn't address 'did we get all we could have for that player' when the deal was made.

I think Shapiro's inexperience showed in the Alomar deal. When this deal was announced several GM's expressed surprise and were unaware Alomar was still on the market. Other trading partners were not fully explored and a more saavy GM would have waited and played the Mets off the Yankees more. There are those who think the Yankees eventually would have caved and included Soriano ia deal for Alomar just to keep him from going to the Mets. Who knows? There was nothing pressing Shapiro to make the deal at the mooment he did. He probably should have waited a little longer to pull the trigger. Inexperience.

[Alex]

As much as I hated the trade when it happened, I was relived that Lawton was part of it, because one of my first comments was I think Lawton will put up numbers close enough to what Robbie will do in 2002.

Shapiro felt that Lawton could put up a similar contribution to Robbie...not necessarily what Robbie did in 2001, but what Robbie would do in 2002.

That means all of those prospects turn the deal in our favor.

The biggest mistake made by Shapiro, and the only one that truly stands out, is Ricky G. I think Shapiro felt he had to find a replacement for Robbie, immediately, or it would have made the trade look like it was made for vindictive reasons rather to help the tribe for the future.

If you plug Luis Castillo into the second base spot, and assuming he can adapt to american league pitching, we would become the favorite to win the division, and anything goes in the playoffs.

Our increase in attendance revenues would more then offset the Ricky G signing, and the team stays competitive even as it rebuilds, and who knows, maybe Thome decides to hang around because we didn't give up on this season.

[Hawaii007]

Exactly,
I said that Lawton would put up similar offensive numbers as Alomar as well.
The thing is, what 2B could we have gotten on the FA market? Guttierez is not helping the team out a lot at the moment, but you cannot evaluate a GM's decision by looking at the signing in a vacuum, but in context with the rest of the available talent.
Also, the Day-Bradley trade was a Shapiro trade. You ask ANYONE in the organization you will know that Shapiro was the one with the last say in the deal, not Hart. Bradley was Shapiro's pet project.

[Alex]

I agree there wasn't much out there for second base, although someone did mention that Florida was shopping Luis Castillo last December. They posted it on this forum, but I have not been able to find the post.

But in now way does that justify a 3 year deal that is BACKLOADED for over 9 million for the final two years.

Johnny Mac, heck, even Dave Roberts could have been an option. Either somebody superb at second base, or somebody with decent speed who would be a base stealing threat.

I would have liked to see Eddie Murray deal with Pee Wee Reese. I believe the Indians players are taking more pitches than last year, and their strikeouts to walks ratio is not that bad.

Not having a second table-setter has hurt the power guys because they see less fastballs as a result. I can't fault Murray for that.

[viper123]

The two bag wasn't available any where in free agency but Alex is right signing him to a long contract was not necessary.

SRG-Why shouldn't Shapiro be judged on those three bad signings he just wasted money that wasn't necessary. There is no doubt he can draft, he has yet to show he has the wit to put together deals. I'm not saying he doesn't but he hasn't proved it yet. He got good players for Alomar but the fact is he probably could have got more. He didn't do a good job of shopping him around. Fine he can have the Day-Bradley Trade, I like Bradley but its not like Day was a dud either. I don't think that trade was a real blockbuster.

Thome is trying to prove me wrong as a #4 hitter, the guy is on fire. Alex-If Castillo could be had I don't see why we wouldn't go after him, but what is the price?

[*TR]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Hawaii007
the Day-Bradley trade was a Shapiro trade. You ask ANYONE in the organization you will know that Shapiro was the one with the last say in the deal, not Hart. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

One significant person doesn't say that. John Hart.
And one fact is indisputable. John Hart was the GM. History will always show John Hart made this trade. The simple reason may be ...bacause he did!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bradley was Shapiro's pet project</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

[img]smile.gif[/img] Where do you get this stuff? [img]frown.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 03, 2002 10:54 AM: Message edited by: *TR ]</font>

[Hawaii007]

TR,
Go and ask Hart, I believe Hart did say that to reporters that the Bradley-Day deal was Shapiros. Granted Day was not a dud, but it was a deal we pulled off trading from a position of strength.
Three bad signings, as in Anderson, Ricky, and Wohlers?
OK, let's go over all three...Anderson, minimal money, and who else were we going to get to play center for that much? For everyone who is flapping their gums about Garcia, he is in AAA right now for the Yankees, and they are looking to UPGRADE their right field spot, so obviously he isn't all that. He is hitting .279 by the way. That was in the PD today. Magruder was a blessing...but no one would have predicted he would be this good. He was hitting .271 at Buffalo when he got called up. We had no one in the farm system to play center either. The Cabrera shooting snowballed more then we originally thought, and Cabrera is nowhere near the player he was before. So yes, in a vacuum, the money on Anderson seems like a waste, but to accurately evaluate moves you have to look at what other options were there.
Wohlers was a signing that confused me when it was made, but it seems like the bullpen is struggeling in general, and again, who else could we have gotten to fill in as a middle guy? We thought that maybe the Buffalo bullpen might do the job, but some of their pitchers are inconsistent as well, so there wasn't any ready-made replacement. 2 million/year is really not that much in the bigger scheme of things either. Tell me a middle reliever they could have had on the open market for cheaper who is more effective? How much did Hart pay for VonPoppel?
Ricky signing seems bad. At the moment, he is playing below his expectations, and considering how Diaz seems to be turning his season around, and Thome as well, and Fryman to a smaller extent, RIcky still has a chance to make amends for his early season spiral.

[Swanny]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">&lt;font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"&gt;Originally posted by srg:
TR, i gave you several E-mail responses from Pluto-Ingraham and Hoynes on Fanhome that proved Shapiro made that Bradley deal but of course you will not accept this so why bother?&lt;/font&gt;</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you call me dumb. If Hart was G.M. at the time of the trade then he was the one who made the trade. End of story. It does not matter if Shapiro had input, Hart was still the one who had to make the trade. What do you think? Shapiro walked into Hart's office and said "I just swung a deal."

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 04, 2002 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Swanny ]</font>

[viper123]

The problem with the Ricky G and Wohlers signings is that Shapiro signed and overpaid for these guys when nobody else was showing any interest. The fact of the matter is that we had equal talent to these guys in the minors. To me Johnny Mac is every bit as good as Ricky G but for much cheaper money. You can crow all you want about Ricky G last year but that year was not his norm. The guy is a decent player but we severly overpaid. Wohlers is a lost cause, the Yanks gave him a shot but he disappeared by the end of the year, next thing you know we pop up with a new deal. You're right in the scheme of thins the money isn't that big of a deal but yet it is because Shapiro is locked into a budget. That money he has tied up into Guitterez and Wohlers might be the 5 million we could have used to pull in a Rolen or top notch talent. It was a waste of moves that hopefully his carelessness will learn from.